When Certified Pre-Owned Isn't

"Justin Hughes" (justinhughes54)
12/28/2015 at 15:44 • Filed to: certified pre-owned

In October my fiancee, Elana, bought a Certified Pre-Owned 2012 Ford Flex. Recently the front brakes were grinding, worn down to the backing plates on one side and almost to that point on the other. In !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , I wrote, “I’ll strongly consider the CPO route myself once it’s time to buy a new daily driver for myself.” Now I have second thoughts.

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“Ford […] !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! that their CPO cars have passed a 172-point inspection.”

What is Certified Pre-Owned, anyway? It depends on who you ask. Nearly all manufacturers have some kind of CPO program these days. It is a manufacturer’s assertion that even though it’s not a new car, it has been thoroughly inspected and is essentially as good as new, minus a few years and miles. Is this a good thing? According to Tom McParland, !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . “I try to steer people into ‘Certified Pre-Owned’ vehicles whenever possible,” he writes. But Steve Lehto !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . “The CPO designation is a marketing tool and little more,” he writes. “Ford […] !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! that their CPO cars have passed a 172-point inspection.” This is absolutely true, as you can see if you follow the link. And right there, point 164, is “Brake Pads and Shoes.”

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Immediately below that, point 165, is “Rotors and Drums.” On our first test drive of this particular Flex, I noticed a vibration under braking that indicated warped rotors. While not a showstopper in itself, we mentioned this several times through the sales process. Each time, our concerns were dismissed. We were simply told that the brakes had passed the CPO inspection.

What I have not been able to find, however, is to precisely what standard these parts are held. !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! specifies only the vague categories of “Passed,” “Repaired,” “Replaced,” and “N/A.” So what qualifies as “Passed?” Half of the pad life? Pad visible above the wear groove? Any visible pad whatsoever? Just looking through the 20 wheel on the driver’s front, without jacking up the car or removing the wheel, I could see the backing plate right next to the rotor with virtually no space between them.

It may take a technician with a micrometer to measure the width of the rotors to determine if they are within spec or not, but anyone with a basic understanding of a braking system could see how worn the pads were. I do admit to not looking for myself until the metal on metal grinding started. That’s because I trusted that no CPO car, or any car sold by a dealer with liability on the line, would ever be sold with nearly dead brakes.

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Though pads and rotors are part of Ford’s 172-point CPO inspection, they are not covered under the CPO warranty. So Elana ordered the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! from !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , and despite !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , I installed it successfully. The brakes work better than ever (you can read the full review !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! ). It’s a nice upgrade, but she shouldn’t have had to replace the brakes at all just two months after buying a CPO car.

Unhappy with the situation, she took to the internet. She contacted !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! to express her discontent. In return she got a rather condescending phone call repeating that the car had passed CPO inspection before it was sold. She took to Twitter to gripe about her experience. We all know that complaining to the internet never does any good, and that nobody listens.

Until they do.

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Wow. Does shouting into cyberspace actually get you results? Elana and !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! exchanged a number of tweets, gathering information, who she had contacted, and whether she planned to bring the car back to the dealer (due to their attitude toward her and their failure to address this problem in the first place, no). In the end:

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Privately she provided this information. And then we waited. If crickets could be heard across the internet, we’d be hearing them. I have no doubt that Ford Service documented the complaint as they said they would, but as far as we know, no further action has been taken. We’re not really expecting any at this point. There’s nothing for the dealer to do since we’ve already repaired the brakes ourselves. In a perfect world we’d be reimbursed for the cost of replacement brakes we shouldn’t have had to buy for a car that allegedly passed its CPO inspection, but I’d be willing to settle for a simple “Oops, we’re sorry we missed that.” To date they’ve denied having made any mistakes whatsoever when the evidence clearly says otherwise.

We’re extremely happy with the rest of the car. It’s been a life saver during our recent move, especially since !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! is suddenly down for the count. But no car, CPO or otherwise, should have worn out brakes so soon after the sale. And thanks to the dealer’s complete dismissal of our concerns, we’ll be going somewhere else for any service, warranty or otherwise. I’ll be taking the CPO designation with a truckload of salt the next time I’m in the market for a new car.

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DISCUSSION (26)

Justin Hughes > Justin Hughes
12/28/2015 at 15:48

This story, the tweets, pictures, and all that are posted with ElanaR’s permission.

DrJohannVegas > Justin Hughes
12/28/2015 at 15:48

Complaining on Twitter works frequently. It’s the only reason I follow so many shit companies.

Steve in Manhattan > Justin Hughes
12/28/2015 at 16:03

Always interesting to see what companies and organizations pay attention to their Twitter accounts. @expedia responded, but they ultimately failed to fix their fuckup - they sold us 3 tickets when we’d ordered 2, and they refused a refund on all three.

Takuro Spirit > Justin Hughes
12/28/2015 at 16:09

When I worked for Mazda the brake pads had to have above 4mm of material left. Tires had to be at or above 4/32nd tread and matching. It goes on. Someone that works at a Ford dealer and posts on Oppo can get you the exact specs I am sure.

davedave1111 > Justin Hughes
12/28/2015 at 16:09

CPO stands for ‘crack pipe only’, right? If they say they inspected it, I expect they did. Inspect it, that is. They didn’t say it’s a hundred-seventy-something point fix , did they?

Sampsonite24-Earth's Least Likeliest Hero > DrJohannVegas
12/28/2015 at 16:09

My sister in law got bumped up to first class after her and her boyfriend complained about southwest on Twitter after unexplained delays

cazzyodo > Justin Hughes
12/28/2015 at 16:14

But...but...but...dealers are there for our protection as consumers!

Good job doing it right yourself. I am curious about the standards for the inspections. My oil changes get done at my dealer and they have boxes for how much of the pad is left when they run through a quick inspection, I believe. If I remember, I’ll dig up the sheet.

DrJohannVegas > Sampsonite24-Earth's Least Likeliest Hero
12/28/2015 at 16:15

Southwest has first class?

Justin Hughes > Takuro Spirit
12/28/2015 at 16:21

4mm isn’t great, but it’s better than nothing. I’m just as curious about what the specs for rotors are. They vibrated quite a bit even on the test drive before we bought it, yet we were assured they had passed CPO inspection. Maybe they only care about the thickness?

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > Justin Hughes
12/28/2015 at 16:28

Unfortunately the quality of a CPO will vary wildly from one dealer to the next, even within one manufacturer. Usually had to do with the bean counters. They don’t want to pay experienced guys to do the CPO, because they cost more. Then they don’t want to fix certain things because then they won’t make as much money on the sale.

I don’t know about Ford, but Mercedes gives technicians the ability to deny a CPO certification if items aren’t repaired to standards. Brakes have to be at least 50%. If the technician misses something the dealer is supposed to cover that repair.

I’m glad you fixed your brakes, but I would have done everything within my power to get the dealer to eat the brakes. It really is their responsibility.

Justin Hughes > AMGtech - now with more recalls!
12/28/2015 at 16:41

It really is. Unfortunately the dealer refuses to listen to us, clinging to their “it passed CPO inspection” defense. I blame the dealer, not Ford. Any manufacturer can set all the CPO standards they want, but they don’t do any good if the people actually inspecting and selling the cars don’t uphold them.

El Darto > DrJohannVegas
12/28/2015 at 16:54

No.

Dr_Watson > Justin Hughes
12/28/2015 at 16:57

sounds like all they did was certify that the car was in fact pre-owned

Takuro Spirit > Justin Hughes
12/28/2015 at 17:15

Not sure if there was anything on rotors. I know no one checked them for thickness.

E92M3 > Justin Hughes
12/28/2015 at 17:53

I wouldn’t expect a CPO car to need pads this soon unless a caliper is hanging up. Even if they accept 4mm as good enough to be CPO they should of lasted roughly 10k miles. Of course it varies depending on the driver, and locale. Are calipers covered under Ford CPO? Were both sides this worn down?

EL_ULY > Justin Hughes
12/28/2015 at 17:59

damn isolated lazy tech that didn’t to their job to Ford CPO standards, simultaneously damaging the reputation of dealerships to the kids here on OPPO

* shakes fists sarcastically but honestly *

Sampsonite24-Earth's Least Likeliest Hero > DrJohannVegas
12/28/2015 at 20:10

Maybe it was business all I know is she got a seat upgrade out of it

Nimbus The Legend - Riding on air like a cloud > davedave1111
12/28/2015 at 20:29

screw that, always have a 3rd party inspect it, or ask if you can inspect it yourself.

Justin Hughes > E92M3
12/28/2015 at 21:09

Calipers are covered. The completely dead pad is from the inside. The outside had a little life left. Both of these were on the driver’s side. The passenger side was pretty much the same.

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > Justin Hughes
12/28/2015 at 22:04

Then say “Maybe it did pass inspection. But there is no way a braking system in good working order would go through 40%+ in two months! There must be an issue with another part of the brake system. Please look at it for me, I’m worried it’s going to burn through brakes every 4 months.”

Then when/if they don’t find anything wrong the only logical conclusion will be that the inspection was not done properly or a recommendation for brakes was ignored. They should provide you with the actual inspection report that the technician filled out if you ask for it, that should have the actual brake measurements on it. If it doesn’t, or they don’t, then they’re standing in quicksand and have zero proof or argument that “it passed inspection”. You may want to have another Ford dealer take a look at it to corroborate your story and use their word against dealer 1.

If that still doesn’t work, I would continue to eviscerate them online. Contacting a lawyer may not be fruitful due to the relatively low cost of brake repairs. Unless you could claim some sort of mental anguish over a potentially dysfunctional brake system?

treesmakewater > cazzyodo
12/28/2015 at 22:46

My dealer over filled the oil on one car, causing a small head gasket leak and rod wear. They claimed nothing was wrong (I had documentation stating they over filled the engine) so I had to take it to another dealer an hour away to be repaired. My local dealer also used an impact on the oil drain plug and I had to use a 4 foot breaker bar to get the plug out. After countless hours of dealing with Subaru USA I was reimbursed for my countless hours of trouble with one free oil change from my local dealer....

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > Justin Hughes
12/29/2015 at 00:05

“What is Certified Pre-Owned, anyway?”

As I’ve said before... it’s bullshit designed to get more money out of people.

I recently found a CPO Ford Focus on Ford Canada’s website. I also found the identical car on Autotrader.ca for $2000 less. And in the autotrader ad, it was listed as a former rental.

And you can get a similar non-CPO Focus for around $4000 less ($10,000 vs $14,000).

$4000 buys a lot of repairs when it’s a mass market US or Japanese brand (or US car with Japanese bits... which is what the Focus is).

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > AMGtech - now with more recalls!
12/29/2015 at 00:07

“Unfortunately the quality of a CPO will vary wildly from one dealer to the next,”

Given that it’s a manufacturer-backed thing, it’s not supposed to vary. And a complaint to the manufacturer should result in a scary-assed phone call from the manufacturer to the dealer which results in the dealer calling the person they tried to screw over and, in an exceptionally polite way, offer to repair the vehicle on their dime.

I blame the dealer AND Ford.

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > Manwich - now Keto-Friendly
12/29/2015 at 00:42

I completely agree. There really shouldn’t be a difference from one place to the next, nor should there be a discrepancy between actual and expected CPO quality. Part of the problem is certainly lax enforcement on the manufacturer’s part. Even that will vary wildly from brand to brand.

Future next gen S2000 owner > Manwich - now Keto-Friendly
01/05/2016 at 10:55

The main benefit of a CPO is the extended warranty from Ford that it gets you. Beyond that, the value is only in the mind of the consumer.

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > Future next gen S2000 owner
01/05/2016 at 12:07

The autotrader ad for the same car had a warranty too... just not the CPO one.